TOWN OF ESOPUS
PLANNING BOARD MEETING
JULY 23, 2009
BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT: Roxanne Pecora, Chairperson
BOARD MEMBERS ABSENT: Darin DeKoskie
ALSO PRESENT: Myles Putman, M.L. Putman Consulting
Chairperson Pecora called the meeting of the Town of Esopus Planning Board to order at 7:05 PM beginning with the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag. Roxanne then advised the public of the building’s fire exits and roll call was taken.
Board members were asked if there were any changes or corrections to the minutes of the June 25, 2009 meeting. No corrections or changes were made.
CHARLIE MADE A MOTION TO APPROVE THE MINUTES OF THE JUNE 25, 2009 MEETING, SECONDED BY DENNIS. ALL MEMBERS WERE IN FAVOR. MOTION PASSED WITH A VOTE OF 6-0.
M.L. Putman Consulting (Month of June, 2009).………………………………$2,250.00
Daily Freeman (Castrucci/DeDominicis)……………………………………….$ 11.25
Peter C. Graham, Esq. (Planning Board General)………………………………$ 175.00
April Oneto (Secretarial Services)……………………………………………….61 hours
CHARLIE MADE A MOTION TO APPROVE THE VOUCHERS AS READ, SECONDED BY FRED. ALL MEMBERS WERE IN FAVOR. MOTION PASSED WITH A VOTE OF 6-0.
Chairperson Pecora informed the Board that she has a conflict with the Aleo application before the Board this evening. The Board will need to appoint a Vice Chairman of the Board and Board Member Fred Zimmer has agreed to serve in this capacity.
MIKE MADE A MOTION TO APPOINT FRED ZIMMER AS VICE CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD, SECONDED BY DENNIS. ALL MEMBERS WERE IN FAVOR. MOTION PASSED WITH A VOTE OF 4-0. ROXANNE AND FRED ABSTAINED.
The Board discussed the August meeting date. Several members of the Board will not be able to make the meeting on August 27, 2009 and after some discussion it was agreed to hold the August Planning Board Meeting on August 19, 2009 which is the second meeting date that the Planning Board published as a meeting date in the beginning of the year.
CASTRUCCI & DeDOMINICIS: Case #2009-15 – Subdivision – 232 River Road
@ Flatsview Court, Ulster Park; SBL: 64.001-
Myles reviewed M.L. Putman Report dated 7/15/09, copy placed in file and copy given to applicants. Paul Castrucci and Marisa DeDominicis were present at this meeting.
Mike questioned whether the County wanted to look at this application since it was within the limit of a County road. Myles stated that they do not and since they are not putting a new curb cut in the Department of Public Works is not interested in looking at this application either.
Applicant will have to receive Ulster County Health Department approval of the well and septic. There are some concerns regarding the soil conditions on this site that have been identified with the slope failure at the Town Water Treatment Plant.
Mr. Castrucci stated that in terms of disturbance to the land they would work closely with the surveyor and engineer and provide the necessary data along with topographical information.
Mr. Castrucci questioned the paper street and whether it was grandfathered in. Myles stated that this would come from the Town. Roxanne stated that she checked with the Town Assessor and he insisted that this is a private road and this is not a deeded street to the Town. Mr. Castrucci questioned what determines whether it is a Town road. Myles stated whether or not it shows on a Town official map which is a very technical legal map.
Discussion took place regarding the need for this application to go to the Zoning Board of Appeals. Myles stated that the existing neighbors uphill from this property, who use this driveway, are not being affected by this subdivision. The applicant will have to work out road maintenance issue with the other owners. Mr. Castrucci stated that there is a Maintenance Agreement in an old deed. The Board stated that they would like to see this noted on the map and a copy of this deed should be provided to the Board for the record. Myles stated that what he is hearing from Roxanne’s discussion with the Town Assessor is that this is not grandfathered and applicant will have to go for a variance in order to obtain a Building Permit for a lot served by an easement.
Discussion continued among Board members regarding the best way to deal with this situation. Fred suggested that the applicant take the lot and give it 50’ of frontage on River Road by changing the lot lines around. This would take care of the road frontage issue. Applicants were told that they would need to check the flood maps and provide topography. We will need contours.
Fred questioned if there are 50’ between the building and the property line. Myles stated that we also need to assume that there is a 50’ easement since we are asking them to plot that. Dennis stated that the new house is not the issue it would be the building on Lot A. Dennis stated that the setbacks are always from the easement of the right-of-way so that house is right on the property line which means there is no setback. Myles stated that it looks like a side yard variance would be required for this. Fred stated that it really does not matter if they drop this down to 40’ as long as they have the frontage. Myles stated that they would need a front yard setback because this is not a mapped street but it is a common driveway. Discussion continued regarding the variances needed. It was agreed that what is really needed is a front yard setback variance. Myles stated that this is an existing condition but you are making the setback more of a permanent thing since you are drawing the lot line along the edge of the roadway. Ms. DeDominicis asked if there was any way that they can get away with not having a variance. Myles stated that he does not think so based on that last observation. A flag lot design is an easier one to deal with than asking the ZBA for permission to get a building permit on a house that does not have frontage on a mapped street. Dennis questioned the square footage. Myles stated that this was covered as part of the Conditional Use Permit. Mr. Castrucci said that the larger building is two stories. The building in the back is the accessory structure.
Dennis suggested that applicants come to pre-submission so that we can make sure that we did not miss anything else prior to them going to their surveyor. Applicants will be scheduled for Pre-Submission Meeting to be held on August 6, 2009 at 1:00 PM.
Chairperson Roxanne Pecora left the room at 7:35 PM and Fred Zimmer took over the running of the meeting.
ALEO: Case # 2009-13 & 2009-14 - Conditional Use Permit & Lot Line
Adjustment – 210 – 218 Hasbrouck Avenue (Town Hwy 909) @
Spring Street, Port Ewen; SBL: 56.059-4-5
Dr. Edward Aleo was present at the meeting. Myles reviewed M.L. Putman Report dated 7/16/09, copy given to applicant and copy placed in the file.
Myles stated that as you go west to Spring Street and you have a lot of unanswered questions there about the owners of the paper streets and who would be developing and improving the paper streets in order to make the lots buildable. Myles stated that we can approve rearranging the lot lines as per the surveyor maps but for the lands west of Spring Street it is an academic exercise because it does not make the lots more buildable than they are now if you still have an issue of unapproved paper streets of uncertain ownership. This is a real concern for the Board. It will be hard for the Board to avoid asking these questions unless we defer to the applicant just to focus on his properties on the east side of Spring Street at this time. Myles stated that scaling back the lot line adjustment application may be the smart way to go because Dr. Aleo will probably get involved in a lot of the subdivision issues that will probably derail him from the two family proposal which appears to be the thing that he really wants to get done.
Myles stated that he has been made aware of the issue in this neighborhood possibly on this site and to the properties on the north and south is the matter of surface drainage or the lack thereof. The question concerning this property is that you are adding impervious surfaces and you will need to do something with the drainage. There are some drainage details provided by the surveyor which is a system of catch basins that seem to operate like a closed system and does not seem to go anywhere other than to just collect. There are three drop inlets on Hasbrouck and one drop inlet is actually shown on the site itself. This is an issue that we will need to look at carefully. Myles stated that the two family proposal will comply with the Zoning.
Bill asked Dr. Aleo if he plans to develop the property or sell it. Dr. Aleo stated that he is planning on developing the property himself. Bill stated that the adequacy of the property is very important to Dr. Aleo’s financial success. Bill raised a concern that came to his attention from the neighbor (Mr. Viviani). Bill stated that a few Board members made a visit to the site and they met Mr. Viviani when he was trying to pump out his cellar. Bill stated that the location of his house with respect to the hillside that Dr. Aleo’s other lots are on looks to be about the same space from the hillside and it would appear that the hillside feeds both his neighbor and the proposed dwelling. The water that falls on those parcels on the hillside will travel down and end up beneath the proposed building and the neighbor’s building. This may be a major part of the high water table.
Dr. Aleo stated that when he spoke with the Water and Sewer Superintendent Spring Street “T” at the end is between two properties. Dr. Aleo stated that the property he is talking about is 6-7 feet above the road which is not like Mr. Viviani’s property which is down. Bill stated that this property used to be at the same level but it was filled in by the previous owners. Dr. Aleo was not aware of this.
Mike asked if Dr. Aleo was planning on putting a basement under this house. He stated that he was told by the Building Inspector and the Water Sewer Superintendent and the Highway Superintendent that he should only go down probably 4’ no deeper and put the footings in and backfill so that you meet the building code. He does not plan to go down 8’ for a basement. Bill stated that the question is whether or not 4’ would solve the problem. Dr. Aleo said that what he has to do is dig first and if that does not work then he will put a crawl space. Bill stated that in situations like this it might be to his benefit to consider an engineer to take measurements of the water table and to draw up a design for a basement that would withstand the high water table. Dr. Aleo stated that he has no problems doing that.
Mike stated that he is concerned about the water in the building but the other issue is the impervious surface and that whatever he does on his lot is going to affect the neighbor who is already having difficulties because of the water that is coming down in that direction. Even if Dr. Aleo solves his water problem with an engineer, he is going to have additional impervious surface caused by the building itself, the parking spaces and the driveway. The drop inlets are designed to take care of that but he would like to know what they are dropping the water into since there does not seem to be a place for that water to go. Where is the outflow of the system? Mike stated that he is not an engineer but his concern is that the catch basin that is not working right now and at the very best you are not going to make it any better but you could make it a lot worse.
Charlie asked if we have determined who owns the continuation of Hasbrouck Avenue beyond the hammerhead. Myles stated west of Spring Street he does not think that we have a clear indication of who owns that. Charlie stated that there is another end to Hasbrouck Avenue off of Prospect Street but the center section was never deeded over to the Town. Bill stated that it appears that Spring Street was illegally subdivided in 1984-1985 and shown on the tax map you will see what is labeled Lot #26 which was a new addition to the tax map that previously was not there. Spring Street was originally shown as continuing through what is shown now as Lot #26 out to Salem Street. Dr. Aleo stated that the story he hears was that this individual purchased that from the Town. Bill stated that there must be a deed that shows this. Fred stated that this does not really affect
Dr. Aleo. That lot is down off of Salem Street which is not contiguous to any of his holdings. Bill stated that the lot in question is now shown as being owned by Vincent Provenzano who lives on 204 Gurney Street. He believes that he owns Lot #20 adjacent to it. He had good reason to want to own Lot #26 to add to the size of his property. He purchased in 1984 which was really part of Spring Street, the road. Bill stated that he has never heard of the Town selling off a road for profit. Fred stated that this has happened a couple of times since Bill was on the Board before.
Fred stated that he agrees with Myles and that we should break the applications apart. Mike stated that we apologize since we originally encouraged Dr. Aleo to put them together. Fred stated that we have to deal with the two family house on Hasbrouck Street separately. Fred stated that he is not sure but he thinks that the Town does own that portion of Spring Street. Bill stated that the Highway Superintendent tells us that Spring Street is not on the list of Town owned roads. Myles stated that this could still be Town owned property. Bill stated that a deed search might solve this because that subdivision he was referring to comes from the same deed that would have left the rest of the streets. Fred stated if you go back to the 1923 map you may find that the parcels were sold off and there was never a deed filed for the street which at that time was not uncommon. You would wind up advertising for three weeks under public notice for any of the heirs to come forward and claim it. Fred stated that the town could quick claim that portion to
Dr. Aleo and let him figure it out. Bill does not recommend that. Fred stated that this is why we want to break them apart. Bill stated that if you look closely at Spring Street the fill that was put in there makes it absolutely unusable now. There would be very substantial work required to bring these paper streets anywhere near the standard of a town road. The Town is not going to want to bear that expense. It has always been the criteria that the expense of a subdivision and development of land is the developers financial responsibility not that of the Town.
Dr. Aleo stated that they show them as streets on the map but the Superintendent of Highways takes care of the highways and identifies those. He does not always have that much say about what is going on with Town streets as far as whether they are streets or not. Fred stated that there are Town properties around that are not under the jurisdiction of the Town Highway Superintendent.
Dr. Aleo stated that he will take the Board’s advice and will separate the applications. He would like to deal with one of them and will research the deed idea. Dr. Aleo asked if the Board is saying that the Town does not want Spring Street. Fred stated that personally he does not see why the Town would want Spring Street but this is something that needs to be discussed with the Town Board. Dr. Aleo stated that if the streets are Town streets and Spinnenweber is to the south they are landlocked. Fred stated that Spring Street to the north only serves Dr. Aleo’s property so why would the Town want to build a road. Mike stated that if the Town did a quick claim then Dr. Aleo stated that he would build a road to get to his property. Mike stated that he would assume that under the existing part of Hasbrouck Avenue there is no stormwater runoff piping or anything like that that runs down. Myles stated that all you see are the catch basins and the drop inlet connections that the surveyor put on the map which do not lead to anywhere. Dr. Aleo asked if they were saying that the storm drains on the property and on the street do not work. Dr. Aleo stated that the Water and Sewer Superintendent said that they did work and you can hear the water running in them.
Fred stated that one of the things he is going to ask Dr. Aleo to do is obtain a map from the Highway Superintendent on where that water goes. Fred said that you can follow from catch basin to catch basin and it goes back through the apartments, which is private property and he lost it in the back yards someplace. It is underground so he does not know where it is. He believes that the Highway Department as part of the MS4 had to map out all of the outlets. Mike stated that this is important because this becomes the solution of the additional impervious surface because if he can connect to something that goes somewhere and it can handle the flow. Fred stated that whether it can handle the flow is another question.
Charlie stated that his main question is whether or not Hasbrouck Avenue extension around the corner is Town property. Fred stated that at this point we do not know and that is part of the reason he would like to see this application separated. Charlie has a little history with this and he does believe that Provenzano did in fact buy that piece of property from the Town (tax map #26). He believes this to be true. Bill thinks Provenzano bought it from VanWestrum. Charlie stated that it was very low swampy area and it held water most of the year and once it was purchased by them it was filled in by them. He believes it was bought as a parking lot for the ceramic shop. Mike stated that we should separate this out and make sure that they don’t build a building that has wet feet and does not cause additional wet feet for the neighborhood. This is what our concern is and this is why Fred is suggesting that you see where the stormwater run-off goes for the existing part of Hasbrouck Avenue.
Dennis was wondering if there was stormwater on the street. Where does Mr. Viviani pump his water when he pumps it? Mike thinks that it goes to the catch basin on his property and then it goes to the street. Fred stated that then it goes underground under Schryver Street to a catch basin. Dennis stated that if he is pumping water someplace and it is not coming up out of the basin then it has to be going somewhere. Mike stated that the rumor is that it is a 12” pipe but he does not know if this is true. Dennis thinks that this can be handled with a dry well and an overflow pipe so the ground will take so much water and then if it starts to backup it can go into that pipe basin. Mike stated that this will be the time to figure that out.
Fred stated that by right Dr. Aleo could walk in and get a building permit for each of those lots so we are here on a Conditional Use Permit. The primary concern is the water. Fred suggested that Dr. Aleo change his driveway and make it as small as possible. Driveway and parking become impervious surfaces. Fred is suggesting that he make it a straight shot in and as small as possible. Dr. Aleo asked to bring it to the front of the house and move the house back. Dennis suggests that he keeps it to the side of the house and does not go all the way around the back. Fred said you could move the house back. Fred asked for contours on the map. Fred stated that the lot is probably 5’ above the road. Fred stated that you may not be able to dig down 4’ to put in the footings even though they are high you might have garbage and debris down underneath. Fred suggested that a memo be sent to the Building Department and prior to the issuance of a Building Permit that a sub-surface investigation be done and this might come back from the engineer when he looks at it. Fred stated that we are going to need some sort of a drainage study.
Myles stated that we are looking for a motion to deal with the original proposal dealing with the Lot Line Adjustment for the lands on the east side of Spring Street and we do not touch the land on the west side. That would be a different application for a different day.
MIKE MADE A MOTION TO GO BACK TO THE ORIGINAL PROPOSAL AND DEAL WITH THE LOT LINE ADJUSTMENTS ON THE EAST SIDE OF SPRING STREET, SECONDED BY DENNIS. ALL MEMBERS WERE IN FAVOR. MOTION PASSED WITH A VOTE OF 5-0. VOTE WAS AS FOLLOWS:
Fred stated that we are going to need a Drainage Study so we will need to set up an Escrow Account. He suggested $1,000.00. Dr. Aleo questioned why he would need to do this since he is going to hire his own engineer. The Board explained to Dr. Aleo that the Planning Board is required to have their own engineer review the Drainage Study submitted by Dr. Aleo’s engineer. He was told that anything that is left in the Escrow Account after this review he will get back when the application process has been completed.
DENNIS MADE A MOTION TO OPEN AN ESCROW ACCOUNT FOR ALEO, CASE #2009-13 & CASE #2009-14 IN THE AMOUNT OF $1,000.00, SECONDED BY MIKE. ALL MEMBERS WERE IN FAVOR. MOTION PASSED WITH A VOTE OF 5-0. VOTE WAS AS FOLLOWS:
Mike stated that he may want to talk to his engineer about ways of mitigating the impervious surface issues. This would move this along that much faster. Fred stated that we are looking to have zero additional runoff from that lot. This may or may not be entirely possible. Bill stated that we want a quality end result. Bill stated that he noted that the soils are such that if you were to dig a hole it would easily cave in. Fred stated that the fill is probably down about 6’. Myles stated that it has probably been filled in. It raises a flag that it might be good to do some testing to see what you are dealing with.
Fred told Dr. Aleo that he could start applications for the properties on the west side if he wants to but he is not sure if they are buildable because there is a lot of rock there. Dr. Aleo was told that the submission deadline will be August 13, 2009. He was told that we may need to change the meeting date from August 27th to August 19th. He should call to check on the meeting date.
Chairperson Pecora returned to the meeting at 8:15 PM.
Board members had a discussion regarding the August meeting date. Following some discussion it was felt that the August meeting date will be changed to August 19, 2009 at 7:00 PM.
Roxanne informed the Board that there are five individuals in Rifton on Old Mill Road who have had properties surveyed and they have property lines going through their homes and would like to resolve this issue. It was agreed that they come in together under one application. The fee will be $150.00 per lot line adjustment. Myles recommends that they come in together to pre-submission as well as, under one application. There should be a point person or a surveyor, etc. to handle the application. All the applicants have to agree on what they want to do.
ZBA REFERRALS: None
MIKE MADE A MOTION TO ADJOURN AT 8:20 PM, SECONDED BY DENNIS. ALL MEMBERS WERE IN FAVOR. MOTION PASSED WITH A VOTE OF 6-0.
NEXT MONTHLY MEETING: WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 19, 2009
DEADLINE DATE: AUGUST 13, 2009
NEXT PRE-SUBMISSION: AUGUST 6, 2009
Planning Board Secretary